Tuesday, January 15, 2013

Following The Bible


(Author’s note: This is a little longer than my usual blog. Hopefully, it’s worth your time to read.)

I believe most, if not all, of the problems our country faces are a result of our moving away from reading, understanding, and following the Bible. Back in the Old Testament days, God laid out many laws, some of them quite detailed, for what the Jews should and should not do. And violation of those laws often called for strict penalties. For example, the penalty for adultery was death. Deuteronomy 22:22 says, “If a man is found lying with the wife of another man, both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman.” Especially by today’s standards, this seems excessively harsh. But God had a reason, stated in the rest of the verse: “So you shall purge the evil from Israel.” Another excessively harsh punishment was the stoning of a rebellious son, one who is a glutton and a drunkard. Again, the penalty was stoning to death. And again, the verse in Deuteronomy 21:21 ends with “So you shall purge the evil from your midst.” But, there’s more, and I believe this is the important part. The verse ends with “and all Israel shall hear and fear.” How many stonings do you think it took before behavior changed?

Unfortunately for the Jews, they would live holy lives for a while, then allow evil to creep back in, get punished, go back to living holy lives, etc. This cycle continued until God finally had had enough and He allowed them to be repeatedly taken into captivity by other nations. Then it appears God gave up on the Jews and stopped communicating with them for over 400 years. After that, Christ came to earth and became humanity’s final hope of salvation. Christ became the fulfillment of the law, though this does not mean the law is abolished. Rather it’s summed up in the words of Jesus, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 22:38-39). By the way, Jesus is quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 and is telling us there is a preferred way that we should live.

Why would God be so harsh with his law and punishments? Leviticus 20:26 says, “You shall be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy and have separated you from the peoples that you should be Mine.” God wants His people to be holy, blameless, righteous, even perfect (Matthew 5:48). We cannot be any of those if evil is among us, because “Do not be deceived, bad company corrupts good morals” (1Corinthians 15:33). And with the coming of Jesus, I believe that God desires for us to have a life of joy and peace and an abundant life: “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I [Jesus] came that they may have life and have it abundantly.” (John 10:10). Yes, Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. Yes, Christians are under grace and not the law. Yes, we have been given the freedom to do whatever we want. But not everything we do is beneficial (1Corinthians 6:12, 10:23). However, there is infinite wisdom behind the guidelines God laid out and there is great benefit to us if we adhere to the Bible – all the Bible.

Let’s look at some of the ills of society and see what God has to say about them and discuss why, in God’s mind, these are bad things for us.

The first one is an easy one: murder. God said, “You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13). Pretty clear cut. An interesting side note, someone who was arguing for gay marriage said that the Old Testament doesn’t apply anymore. Really? Nowhere in the New Testament does it explicitly tell us that we should not murder. I guess it’s open season.

All of the Bible applies. Are we under the law still? No. We are under grace. Like I said above, Jesus gave us a commandment to love the Lord God with all of our heart, mind, and soul and to love our neighbors as ourselves. Breaking down this commandment, we see that the first part – loving God completely – relates to the first four of the Ten Commandments, and the second part relates to the last six of the Ten Commandments. So, why did God tell us not to murder? By the way, He didn’t tell us not to kill. Murder is a specific act – willfully taking another person’s life without provocation or justification. Why did God throw this one into the mix? I know, obvious questions, but a good place to start. Imagine a world where it was okay to murder anyone we felt like murdering. Most of us would be hard-pressed to “have life and have it abundantly.”

What does God say should happen to someone who does murder someone else? “If anyone kills a person, the murdered shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses” (Number 35:30a). But wait, that’s not all God tells us about that. The verse goes on to say, “But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.” Today, we have many other means of linking a murderer to their crime, but even today, if the only evidence we have is one witness, we should not put that person to death for their crime. The Bible, and even the Old Testament, continues to be relevant for us today and we should heed The Word.

The second example, again another easy one, is “You shall not steal” (Exodus 20:15). We’ll not dwell on this one, but again, imagine a world where it was okay to take anything we wanted without paying for it or without permission. It would not be a pleasant place to live. And what does God recommend as punishment for a thief? Interestingly, we’ve moved away from God’s system of justice in our country for lesser crimes than murder. But maybe we should reconsider. Here’s an example of what God recommends: “If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep” (Exodus 22:1). Going further in the verse, God says that if the stolen livestock is found alive the thief only needs to pay double. If the thief cannot repay, he is to be sold for his theft. I’m not advocating human trafficking, but what about having to work off the theft? We all recognize that we should not steal, but God’s Word also gives us, in my opinion, a much better system of justice. Rather than throwing a thief in jail where all he does is learn how to steal better, or worse, let’s make thieves repay for what they stole. Think about the many investment scandals we’ve recently had. Instead of throwing Bernie Madoff in prison, what about making him repay five times what he stole? Makes much more sense to me. Adhering to God’s word would make our world a better place.

Exodus 20:17b says, “You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.” Back in Old Testament times, and even carrying into New Testament times, the penalty for being caught in adultery was stoning to death. Why so harsh a penalty? Today, especially in Western culture, we have the mentality that if it doesn’t hurt anyone what’s the problem? If two consenting adults, why not? The prevalence of adultery in our society (you can look up the statistics) is indicative of the self-centeredness of humans. Sure, there may be two consenting adults, but there is always at least one other adult who is not consenting. The aftermath of adultery can be devastating to the other spouses and to the children. There are health risks such as communicable diseases. There are financial implications, legal implications, and of course mental and emotional damage.

What if a married couple just doesn’t get along anymore? I guess the answer depends on whether you want to obey God or follow your own ideas. According to God, work it out! God hates divorce. Love is not an emotion (see previous blogs), but a behavior. We choose to love or not. When two people get married, they make a commitment, and like all commitments, there are sacrifices that need to be made. We have to give our self-centered tendencies over to God. And becoming a Christian means giving up our life. Not necessarily in the physical sense of dying for our faith (though that can happen), but in the spiritual sense in that we no longer live for self, but for God (Galatians 2:20). I’ll leave as a homework assignment for the reader to look up all the statistics (and there are many) about the effects of divorce on children. And here’s another great verse: “One who if faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much” (Luke 16:10). Do we really think we have faith in God if we can’t be faithful in the smaller things of life like marriage?

And speaking of divorce, this is another area where Christians have become just like non-Christians. According to George Barna, the divorce rate within the Christian church is around 50%, no different than outside the church. This is not God’s desire for us. The Old Testament has many passages about divorce, and Jesus spoke on this subject repeatedly. For example, Jesus said, “But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery” (Matthew 5:32). According to the Bible, the only time we should contemplate divorce is when our spouse has been unfaithful. Even then, God would prefer to see us work it out and stay married (Read the book of Hosea). Why? Even the Pharisees questioned Jesus about divorce and indicated that Moses made provision for Jews to divorce. In Matthew 19, the Pharisees asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason?” Jesus’s answer was that God made husband and wife one flesh and “Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” The Pharisees then asked why Moses had allowed for divorce and Jesus answered that is was because of their hard hearts. He then finished with the statement above from Matthew 5:32.

Why the hard line on divorce? Again, God doesn’t make up rules just so He can make our life difficult. He lays down these guidelines for our benefit. Jails are full of men and women who come from single parent homes. Check the statistics for teen suicide, teen alcoholism, homosexuality, delinquency, and drug use. Large percentages are committed by teenagers from broken homes. Bill Cosby has called this an epidemic in the African American community and has blamed crime on the lack of fathers in the home. God’s plan for the family is a man and a woman together, raising children. “Has not the one God made you? You belong to Him in body and spirit. And what does the one God seek? Godly offspring. So be on your guard, and do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth” (Malachi 2:15).

Finally, on divorce, I know many couples that are on their second, third, or more marriage and have children from multiple marriages. And in almost all cases, this causes strife. Does this mean all kids from broken homes will turn out bad? Does this mean all kids from intact families turn out good? Does this mean all blended families have issues? No to all of these questions, but the statistics show that the odds favor intact first marriages.

“For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; that each one of you know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, not in passion of lust like the Gentiles who do not know God;” 1Thessalonians 4:3-5. And, “Flee from sexual immorality.” 1Corinthians 6:18a. Finally: “Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy.” Romans 13:13. So what is “sexual immorality”? The literal translation of the Greek word in the New Testament is “fornication”, which means “illicit sexual intercourse.” In many contexts the word means adultery. The term can be broadened to include any sexual intercourse outside of marriage.

We’ve already covered adultery, so let’s now focus on pre-marital sex. Why would God counsel us against such a thing? After all, if it feels good, do it, right? Two people, having consensual sex. No one is getting hurt, right? God created sexual intercourse as a way for humans to reproduce. And He made it pleasurable. His Word instructs us about the proper time and place for sexual intercourse. And as in everything else we’ll discuss, He had his reasons. So what is wrong with sex outside marriage? Sexually transmitted diseases, unwanted pregnancies, emotional bonds established, then broken; these are only some of the complications of sex outside the bounds of marriage. In 1Thessalonians 4 quoted above, Paul tells us that God’s will for us is sanctification. This big word basically means “becoming like Christ.” To bring in a cliché, before we embark on any sexual exploit outside of marriage, we should ask ourselves, is this what Jesus would do? In all cases, the answer will be “no”.

Moving away from sexual relationships, let’s look at false idols. God gave us a commandment: “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below” (Exodus 20:4). I really don’t think there are many people today, especially in the US, who are forging golden calves and calling them gods. However, look at verse 5, which says, “You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God.” Especially in the US, we can all think of examples where people, maybe ourselves included, bow down and worship someone or something other than God. Here are just a few examples: Television, actors, athletes, athletics, cars, money. The list could go on and on. In today’s world, an idol is anything that we put more faith in or put in the place of God.

Why is this a bad thing? The rest of Exodus 20:5 and verse 6 give us enough motivation. God says that he will “[punish] the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate Me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.” There are many implications to be drawn from this verse alone. If we, as adults, put our faith in something or someone other than God, it’s not only us that suffer, but our children. They learn from us, and according to God’s Word, the cycle can take several generations to break. But obeying God, putting Him first, can pass down many, many more generations.

On the practical side, God will never let us down. He is always faithful. “The Lord is righteous in all His ways and faithful in all He does” (Psalm 145:17). People or stuff, on the other hand, will always let us down. We’ve all experienced this. The person we worshipped revealing a deep, dark secret. Can you say, “Joe Paterno.” Even the Apostle Paul experienced let down. In 2Timothy 4:9-10, he writes to Timothy, “Do your best to come to me quickly, for Demas, because he loved this world, has deserted me and has gone to Thessalonica.” And Paul in Romans chapter 1 talks about how he himself has not been able to get to Rome as he’s wanted to, thus letting down his followers. We should put our trust in God, not other people. And what about acquiring wealth and not achieving happiness? Look at the stats of how many lottery winners have their lives ruined because of money. Things and people should not be worshipped. Only God deserves our worship and our faith.

Finally, let’s finish with the use of alcohol. By implication, we can relate to drug usage as well, but I’ll stick to alcohol because it is legal. Again, not everything that is allowed is beneficial. And in the Christian community, alcohol usage is a divisive issue. People have left churches because of that church’s stance on alcohol use. What does the Bible say about using alcohol?

Let’s approach from an obtuse angle and start with the controversy over alcohol use. Allowing this topic to be divisive goes against Biblical advice. Paul wrote to Timothy, “Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone…” (2Timothy 2:23-24). If you do have a strong opinion about drinking, don’t allow it to be divisive. Keep it to yourself.

But what about drinking alcohol itself? Proverbs 23:30-35 describes one who “tarries long over wine” and the effects this can have. Alcohol can be addicting. And the effects of an alcohol addiction can be devastating. Is it really worth the chance? Verse 32 says, “In the end it [wine] bites like a serpent and stings like an adder.” And Ephesians 5:18 says, “And do not get drunk with wine, but be filled with the Spirit.” Clearly, drunkenness is not encouraged in the Bible. Noah gets drunk and his daughters have sex with him. Not a good situation. There are other examples in the Bible and of course many in our lives where drunkenness leads to tragic consequences. Alcoholism, we all know, is devastating to both the individual and their families and discouraged in the Bible.

But, there seem to be examples in the Bible where people are encouraged to drink. John chapter 2, Jesus turns water into wine. At the last supper, Jesus and His disciples are drinking wine. And in 1Timothy 5:23, Paul instructs Timothy, “(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)” The argument in the church seems to always come down to social drinking. Not getting drunk, but having that one glass of wine with dinner or that one beer at the game. By the way, if someone “needs” to have that one glass of wine a night, they are a functional alcoholic. Anyway, there is a verse in the Bible I like to use in this situation to state my position. 1Corinthians 10:31 says, “So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” Apply this test to the examples above in the Bible. In all cases, the participants were bringing glory to God. When you are inclined to imbibe, think to yourself, am I bringing glory to God by drinking this drink? If yes, go for it. If not, you might want to rethink.

This list could go on and on. There are many things that we, as a society, accept, but when we examine the Bible we find that God disapproves. God gave us free will, thus we’re allowed to make our own choices. And when Christ came, thus fulfilling the law and ushering us into the age of grace, God told us that now, “All things are lawful, but not all things are helpful. All things are lawful, but not all things build up.” (1Corinthians 10:23 – also see 1Corinthians 6:12). The New Testament is not a rule book. It’s a guide to an abundant life.

“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work” (2Timothy 3:16-17).
Read the Bible. Follow the Bible. Though it’s an ancient book, it’s even more relevant today and will continue to be relevant tomorrow.

20 comments:

  1. Long Comment for a long blog...

    "Christ became the fulfillment of the law, though this does not mean the law is abolished"

    I think this is an important point most miss.I am glad you mentioned it

    A lot of times Christians miss the relationship between the old testament and new. When asked "Why do you not eat shellfish like the Levitical code prohibits?" I think most would not know what to say.
    If we understand a proper relationship between the Old and New Covenant (i.e. Jesus fulfilled it), then the bible is clearer, and accusations of "cherry picking" what verses we will and will not follow dissolve.

    The law was not abolished, it still stands as an everlasting testament to God's character that we can learn from.

    one question I had though was whether you are saying punishments in the OT law should stand in modern society? I did not think you were saying this, but you seemed to suggest (such as the paying back for stealing) that the old testament levitical code is practical in applying its laws verbatim-which I do not think would necessarily apply or is the "point" of those laws. Many of the laws were culturally defined to the time period for the people of Israel to become a nation.

    Again it may have been my misunderstanding, I was just wondering if you could clarify what you think the relationship is between application of the OT law through reflection of God's character versus the application of the OT literally (because your illustration seemed to favor the latter).
    brief excursus on alcohol:

    "2Timothy 2:23-24... If you do have a strong opinion about drinking, don’t allow it to be divisive. Keep it to yourself."

    I agree entirely

    "Noah gets drunk and his daughters have sex with him. Not a good situation. There are other examples in the Bible and of course many in our lives where drunkenness leads to tragic consequences."

    Did you mean Lot?

    there are also many verses and stories that also include alcohol in a positive light, which you mentioned further down

    And my only issue is that if exegesis were done on these (both negative and positive) passages, the drunkenness is not the focus, it is normally a null point of the passage.

    But I do agree elsewhere drunkenness or a lifestyle thereof is condemned.

    "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments"

    you did not mention this, but many have pointed out that the reason they would mix water and wine is to sanitize the water. John Macarthur has also said Pharisees would dilute the wine to abstain from "sin of drunkenness."

    I have researched this however and wine alcohol content for the average wine compared to today's was higher in the ancient roman empire, and the alcohol content, even diluted, would be higher than a beer or light beer today likely...but i still haven't found specifics on this

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  2. " Is it really worth the chance?"

    I have heard this argument, but i wonder how its different from obesity (a far larger issue in our country than drinking), or texting. The logic seems to be a "stay above reproach logic" which i get, and think we should do. But it seems extreme to say "therefore you should never drink alcohol" because it could hurt people around you, yourself, etc.

    I saw a news report the other day that texting car accidents and fatalities are now multiple times higher than alcohol related accidents and fatalities. But I haven't heard churches moving to ban texting from our cell phone plans to stay above reproach. the analogy might not be perfect, but it seems to apply here.

    " think to yourself, am I bringing glory to God by drinking this drink? If yes, go for it. If not, you might want to rethink."
    This is a great point.
    It should also be applied to other things though: candy, cake, movies, etc. I do not mean that sarcastically, but i think a lot of times we focus on alcohol, and do not think to apply it elsewhere
    Its an important point though

    I guess my only hang up is that while your advice is great, it cannot always apply. part of the reason people leave the church because of the alcohol issue, or divide, is because the church will not allow anyone to serve if the ever drink at all (drunk or not).
    It seems in those situations the advice doesn't stand, but this is more a problem with the churches, not the advice.
    If it really is an issue that should not be divisive, why do churches require prohibition?

    I would be interest in your thoughts on this, because i do not have a solution
    I know other churches it is not an issue. At Covenant (and most of the Presbyterian churches on the conservative side of the split) they use wine in communion and it is not an issue.

    My feelings towards the issue are apathetic. I do not think it should matter. If I wanted to buy a case of beer at my local Wal-mart I should be able to without fearing of running into someone from church who may scorn me for doing so. I should also be able to serve my church.

    I do not know, maybe my feelings are misplaced on this issue, but I would not mind hearing your thoughts on my comments.

    I liked the blog. so many forget the OT (& NT) are useful for teaching today. Often times the OT specifically is ignored as a bunch of obscure laws for Israel, and to a degree they are, but they tell us so much about God & his character. No we do not need to follow a shellfish prohibition under the new covenant, but it still tells us about God for the reason for the prohibition to the culturally defined time. We can still learn about God even from the seemingly obscure in his word. Often times everyone's favorite verses from the NT they do not even realize are direct quotes from the OT. The whole bible is useful today if we take the time to understand it.

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  3. "one question I had though was whether you are saying punishments in the OT law should stand in modern society?" I think the spirit of the Biblical punishments should be reconsidered for our society. I see no point in putting someone in prison and not requiring they make restitution to the victims. So, like the Old Testament law said – steal something, pay back five times as much. This would be a great punishment for white collar crimes in particular.

    "Again it may have been my misunderstanding, I was just wondering if you could clarify what you think the relationship is between application of the OT law through reflection of God's character versus the application of the OT literally" I don’t think the Old Testament is there just to learn God’s character. Don’t forget, when Paul wrote “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16) he wasn’t talking about the New Testament, but he was talking about the Old Testament. Following the 10 commandments (and many of the other laws that are not part of the sacrificial law) is beneficial to us as individuals and to society at large. We need to consider the Old Testament as more than a history book or a character reference.

    "Did you mean Lot?" Oops. I was thinking of Genesis 9 – just got my details mixed up. Noah got drunk and his sons saw his nakedness. Good point on Lot, though as well.

    There is no valid reason to drink alcohol that I can think of. Our aim as a Christian is not to see how close we can approach the line but not cross over, rather it should be to stay well away from the line. If a state has a law against texting while driving, then texting while driving is a sin, because it’s breaking the law. Absent the law, it’s not sin, but just stupidity. Is stupidity a sin? Maybe it should be, but I don't think so. Obesity, where it’s not a disorder, is excessive indulgence and sometimes laziness (absent exercise or research into the right kinds of food). Is this sin? Sure. Should it be preached on more? Maybe. Not for me to decide. I hope preachers are spirit-led and if in a preacher’s congregation obesity was a problem and the spirit led him to preach on obesity, he’d obey. The Bible talks about over-indulgence and its perils as well (applies to more than just food). Why drink alcohol? Most people when they first try it don’t like it. So, why do they try it again? It’s a drug. It’s a depressant and the first thing it depresses is the inhibitory system, which leads to boldness and generally brash behavior. It’s also an immuno-suppressant, thus when someone drinks alcohol, it lowers the immune system making them susceptible to illness. So, I repeat, why drink alcohol?

    There are many different churches that prohibit many different things. My thoughts on this are if you do not agree with the philosophy of the church, leave, find one where you do agree. These prohibitions are often not Biblical. But then neither are many other traditions churches have. Again, leave if you don’t like or agree with how a church operates. Don’t stir up trouble, complain, or gossip, just leave.

    I, personally, would never attend a church that used wine in their communion. But, I wouldn’t picket them, bad mouth them, or spend my energy trying to change their behavior.

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  4. "My feelings towards the issue are apathetic."
    Unfortunately, there are too many that think this way about too many of society’s problems. "I do not think it should matter. If I wanted to buy a case of beer at my local Wal-mart I should be able to without fearing of running into someone from church who may scorn me for doing so." And why do you care if someone else scorns you? That’s their issue, not yours. "I should also be able to serve my church." See above. If you don’t like the policy of the church, find another one.

    "No we do not need to follow a shellfish prohibition under the new covenant" Has nothing to do with the covenant. It has more to do with health. Besides, God told Peter any food is now acceptable. There are diets based on the Old Testament, and my understanding is they are pretty healthy diets.

    Thanks for the comments and for reading the post. I get so little time to write these days due to school that my posts are few and far between.

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  5. Thanks for clarifying

    I had a few comments , but wanted to ask a couple clarifying questions

    1. Do you think drinking alcohol is a sin? And why or why not?

    2. You mentioned the shellfish prohibition hasnothing to do with the covenant. What do you mean by that? Isnt it part of the Sinai covenant?

    3. How would you apply the shellfish law, or sabbath day law?

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  6. Why drink Alcohol? For enjoyment, and because God has given it to us to enjoy; "He makes grass grow for the cattle,and plants for people to cultivate— bringing forth food from the earth:wine that gladdens human hearts, oil to make their faces shine, and bread that sustains their hearts." (Psalm 104:14-15, the context and word is not "juice")

    and the negative effects of alcohol, while not refuting the above, are usually based on alcoholics frequent use:

    http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/SC/00024.html
    http://www.steadyhealth.com/articles/Pros_and_Cons_of_Alcohol_Consumption_a1111.html

    And on "acquired taste";
    many alcoholic beverages do not require "forcing" yourself to like them. I have had wine, and cider, and i recall liking it, not making myself.
    furthermore i do not see the difference between "forcing" yourself to like coffee and other foods (many examples parallel). the only difference is alcohol, which is simply something to practice self control over (like everything else in life).

    This article actually sums up my views on drinking:
    http://www.remnantresource.org/wine-with-jesus/
    "So instead of teaching about self-control, some teach that Christians cannot drink alcohol without sinning. For example, I grew up in a church that formally prohibited its members from drinking alcohol in its constitution and bylaws. This church was not an exception, either. There are many Christian organizations that forbid their members from drinking altogether. But if you think about it, this means that Jesus wouldn’t be allowed to host the marriage supper of the Lamb in any of these places. Doesn’t this seem odd? Shouldn’t we be concerned if we have rules that mean Jesus isn’t allowed?"

    (I recommend the full article)

    My issue is a man made tradition that ignores alcohol as a blessing from God, and fired those (or prohibits those) who would serve the church on the basis of a man made tradition that does not effect theology one way or another. If it truely is not a "big deal" and churches "split" because of this issue, then why are their church laws against it? one shouldn't have to leave their church family.

    these are just my opinion, I do not want the aside to distract from your article though. I appreciate your thoughts.

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  7. My problem is less with an individual wanting to drink alcohol in the privacy of their own home and more with those that feel compelled to spend their time convincing others that drinking is okay. When a Christian becomes a stumbling block for others, that is a sin. And publically posting the supposed virtues of alcohol all over Facebook and blasting churches for speaking out against drinking is putting stumbling blocks in front of both Christians and non-Christians. (I am not accusing you of doing this - I've seen others doing this). An alcoholic can be created from just one drink, since the physical reaction to alcohol is different in different people.

    And the article you posted was written by someone who is not a medical professional (she worked for an insurance company) and didn't cite any of her sources.

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  8. But if alcohol is a blessing from God, and even Jesus made the "best wine" at a wedding (I.e. public), why is "privacy of their own home" the restriction? I do not think public has anything to do with it.

    Should we not eat in public either for fear of "sinning " for someone who stubble's with gluttony? Or texting?

    My point is we have no prohibition in these areas, and trust self control. Some cause larger problems in society than alcohol. Why is alcohol the focus?

    And I agree with you that making a personal goal to convince people of alcohol is an issue. So is convincing people its not. And I do not think occasionally posting something fits the "stumbling block " catagory. I intend on reposting that wine with Jesus article above, and I do not think that is a sin.

    At some point people have personal responsibility. We cannot be blamed for every stumbling block.

    Actually I would say all the people posting food pica all over Facebook are bigger stumbling blocks for those with eating issues if that's the case .

    For me if alcohol is a blessing from God, and is to be looked forward to at the end times feast, then it should not be a deal breaker for church volunteers or jobs. The church is the problem at that point for making a man made tradition and forcing prohibition against something the Bible said God provided for our enjoyment. It shouldn't be drank in a closet either away from the public anymore than the pie and ice cream socials churches regularly have.

    With that said, the Bible also warns against abuse, which is not to be ignored either. And I think there is some plausibility in not causing others to stumble. There are some I know have struggled with alcohol in the past, and I will never drink around them. That would be wrong.

    The article : I did post two, but both are common knowledge. I can try to dig up primary resources as well, but I didn't think that was that in depth of an issue.

    Generally for negative effects to apply, its something like an average of two beers a day forever...which not many do.

    One beer could make some one an alcoholic, and this also applies to sex, foods, nonalcoholic drinks, and many other vices. But all of these are not grounds for prohibition and someone who eats cake in public isn't sinning if he unwittingly eats it in front of someone with an eating disorder.

    To reiterate you do have good warnings. We should be careful and sensitive with alcohol. And I agree sometimes many take it too far. I heard some are even making "brewery ministries" which sounds like a stupid idea to begin with.

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  15. Romans 14:21 - It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

    Luke 7:33 - For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine...

    Luke 1:15 - For he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb.

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  19. So I'll go back to one of my original statements. Find a different church. Find the one God leads you to be at if you don't agree with their rules. ALL churches have man-made traditions. Find the one God wants you in.

    One question, though, how is preaching abstinence from alcohol any different than preaching abstinence from pre-marital sex? The Bible is pretty clear on adultery (fornication), like it is on drunkeness, but not so on non-adulterous sex. And what about all those wives people like David had? Today, we have laws that say a man can only marry one woman. Should the church come out and preach against that and advocate polygamy and having concubines?

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  20. All churches have traditions, but one should not be prohibited from serving on the basis thereof. I could understand if it was theologically tied, but alcohol does not effect ones theology. And i do not think one should have to leave. There are relationships people develop at churches, and its hard to find another church. I could understand if someone disagreed with a theological effecting stance such as an interpretation (such as baptism vs. sprinkling). but alcohol does not effect any of that. And that is why "people leave the church" literally because of man made rules. And the prevalence of man made traditions does not make them okay. I do get where your coming from, I just do not think prohibition is warranted. Leaving does not make an issue disappear. I'm not saying stay and make a fuss, just the opposite: let me stay and quit making a fuss.

    abstinence of alcohol is for life, and alcohol is not a sin. abstinence from sex is not for life, and it is sin if its committed.

    the OT never condones polygamy, and the NT clarifies a relationship. It would be wrong to do so. If polygamy were legal, Christians would be sinning to practice polygamy.

    The existence of something in the bible is not approval: wine is seen as a gift from God, i cannot think of spots where polygamy is.

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